Ep. 3 - SCHOOL

Transcript:

Voicememo (Miranda): For my dad, education was truly, like, a golden ticket to success. So it was natural that when they had me, you know, my dad's emphasis was always on education and that I'd be just the best, and that they do everything to help facilitate me being the best at school. I was voted most likely to succeed in high school and also at elementary school graduation, which...I don't know who was voting on that, but there you go. In a lot of ways that kind of pressure to be the best...now, in retrospect, I can see that it sucked the joy out of learning for me, especially when I was a little kid. And so now as a parent to a six-month-old who is a few years away from going to school, I'm already starting to think about, you know, what I want for her out of learning and school. Obviously, I want her to be successful and learn and be smart and, you know, do well in school. But how can I make learning be, like, a joyful experience and a thing of wonder and happiness?

Jeremy: You're listening to the...

(Miranda): I just remembered that I was so stressed out and felt so much pressure as like a six-year-old in second grade that I started developing ulcers and I had to go to the school office every day at lunch to take a spoonful of Maalox to help deal with my ulcers. And like now, looking back at that, like no adults in my life were like, "hey, you're doing great. Don't worry, let's try to get you some help. I don't think you should be that stressed out as a six-year-old." But no, let's just send her to the office, the Maalox will take the edge off. That seems like a good plan.

Jeremy: You're listening to "The Talk", a podcast where we explore the possibility of creating a radical new communication environment between parents and children. An environment that's open, honest, and candid. And where nothing is off limits.

Voicememo (Audrey): I was homeschooled when I was little for a year after my dad died, and I hated it. It was so easy, it was so boring. I wanted to do anything but just stay home and work out of workbooks. And I can't help but think about that as my kindergartner is going to a new school over Zoom. And he loves his teachers and he loves looking at the other kids, but he hates learning on Zoom and I hate having to force him to do that. It's just in between a rock and a hard place. And I hope I'm not the only parent going through this because I'm not a great kindergarten teacher and I feel like I'm not such a great mom either.

Pam Hogan Charron: I think it's going to be an interesting trend and switch. To get kids thinking, and that's what education used to be back in the Enlightenment era and Socrates, is to get people to think. And so I think we're shifting to that. And that's good news.

Jeremy: This is Pam Hogan Charron. Pam has spent her career working in alternative education. She's an ambitious person and a kind, generous, and thoughtful educator, and I talked to her because I want to focus during this episode on the kids who don't always feel like they fit in in traditional school structures or who get discouraged being part of a system that doesn't always recognize and reward individuality, creativity, and a need to depart from a traditional and very specific educational trajectory. Pam knows a lot about that stuff. You'll hear her talk during this interview about her work with BOCES, which is New York State's Boards of Cooperative Educational Services. BOCES is an organization created in 1948 that partners with public school districts to provide career and technical programs, services for students with disabilities, literacy and employment training, professional development and instructional technology for both school age and adult learners.

Jeremy: So to start off, would you just tell me a little brief background on you and your career?

P.H.C.: Sure. I started working in alternative education in about 2002, and my first experience was at an alternative junior high school. It was a seventh, eighth, and ninth grade program designed to kind of catch kids up who had fallen behind, rather than holding them back. And then transferred into what was called The Career Academy through BOCES, and career academies were kind of all the rage back in the early 2000s as a way to try to help at-risk or alternative kids to get into the careers, get into the trades, and sort of train them along with their high school classes geared towards those careers. So, if you were going to be an electrician, we were going to try to teach you history through the trade's perspective. That was a wonderful experience, and so many kids responded so positively to that. And I did that right up and through... I guess I'm going to say 2016, and then continued my own education into administration and did administration partially at one of our trade schools through the BOCES, and then transferred into adult education where the adult education students were learning trades. And now I'm just kind of in charge of assessment and intervention back in the high school, doing some of the assessment programs for the kids there throughout our trade schools, alternative programs and even special-ed.

Jeremy: Yeah, so are you...you're no longer in the classroom?

P.H.C.: I'm no longer teaching in the classroom. I get into the classroom often to kind of run the intervention programs. To assess the kids with some testing. Mostly now I kind of deal with the teachers and help the teachers and mentor and train them in the intervention programs—reading, math, and writing.

Jeremy: Yeah. Do you miss being in the classroom with kids to some extent?

P.H.C.: I miss being in the classroom with kids so much. And so when I'm able to get in again, it's just such a joy to see them experience the joy of learning or to make progress and to feel proud of themselves. So it's such a treat when I'm able to do that. But yes, my best years in education were always in the classroom.

Jeremy: Why did you make the decision to pursue the administrative route and degrees?

P.H.C.: I think I wanted to pursue the administration route because in teaching there's so little room for growth or self actualization. And so I kind of felt the desire to climb the ladder a little bit myself. And I wanted to see what changes I could make in education on more of an administration level. I can't say that I'm glad I made that switch and I can't say that I regret making that switch. I guess more will be revealed.

Jeremy: You mentioned before teaching kind of what are usually considered core subjects through these specialty areas that that these kids are studying. And I think that's remarkable. Is that common in trade focused education?

P.H.C.: It used to be common in trade-focused education. And I think more and more it's sort of switching to, you know, to meet the kids where they are to capture the kids' interests, and that will help them learn the curriculum. One of the greatest books I ever read as an educator was called Reading Don't Fix No Chevys. And so if you're trying to capture those kids hearts who are mechanical in nature or don't see the point of learning English or math or whatever, for the point of learning English or math, you know, they want to be able to relate it to something that that matters to them and something that they're interested in, in their lives. So I think more and more we start to see the push in education to teach the kids these core subjects, but make it meaningful and purposeful in their own lives. And so in that sense, I think we see a push more towards the trades. I'm going to say, or to whatever the kids' interests might be. It's no longer teaching math for the sake of the Cold War where we need to develop bombs. It's teaching math for the sake of whatever route the student is going to find themselves interested in pursuing. And that's really the teacher's big challenge nowadays is to find out what are your children interested in, your students and how can you turn them on to the subject and make them more successful in whichever endeavor they wish to pursue.

Jeremy: The thing that you hear constantly from students is "when am I going to need this? Why am I learning this? How is this applicable to my life?" And that's like such a common refrain. Should there be more of that focus...of connecting those concepts with real life in general education? In general public school classrooms?

P.H.C.: I think yes. And more and more so there really is. You know, gone are the days when we would watch, you know, Leave It To Beaver in the classroom and they would all raise their hands and sit there with their hands folded and the teacher could threaten to call home. And that was the worst thing. Now we really just have to capture and engage our kids. And so I think teacher training programs are really finding out that we have to capture the kids' interest. Otherwise they're lost and they're not going to learn. So more and more so it's becoming the truth and the strength of education.

Jeremy: You mentioned before...you used the term "at risk" students. Can you tell me a little bit about what that term means?

P.H.C.: “‘At-risk’, in its simplest terms it means at risk of graduation, or not graduating. At risk of dropping out of school, at risk of not doing well in school. And I think that's the truest definition of it. But the more and more time you spend around at-risk kids, you see that at-risk kids are a different kind of learner and more so a hands on learner. They want to learn by doing. They don't want to watch a video about World War II. They don't want to read Steinbeck. They have this natural compulsion within them to use their hands. To reach for, to explore, to build, to do, and to learn through that experience. So obviously, if you put a student like that in a traditional classroom they will become at risk of graduating. They're not at all interested, it doesn't match their skill set, it doesn't match their learning style. And oftentimes, just as you and I would in a situation like that, these kids might act out some, get in trouble, not do their work, become bored and become apathetic to education.

Jeremy: Yeah, it feels to me like it's a term that there's a stigma around. And is it a term that's really useful or is it a bit outdated, do you feel?

P.H.C.: I think it's probably a term...you're right. I guess I never thought of that. But it's a term that's not useful and it is a term that's a bit outdated. It's just that an at-risk student is often a student who learns differently from another student. So I guess that's a good question you pose. I'm not sure what we ought to call them, but they're certainly not at-risk. They're are some of the most successful students that I've ever taught. Some of the smartest students that I've ever taught. One student comes to mind. We'll just call him "Joe", and that's not his name. But when I met him...he's brilliant, and I thought "you should be a lawyer." And I told him that: "you are wonderful with how you can think, wonderful in your arguments. You're very well versed in all this history stuff I'm teaching. You should become a lawyer." And he said, "I want to lay concrete. I want to be a mason." And I was shocked by that. But at the same time, you know, now he's an exceptionally well-to-do, has his own business, mason and more so he's happy! You know, this is a kid that wants to learn by doing, you know, his mason work to him is an art form. And so...I don't remember even the point of telling the story, but he's incredibly successful. And he's doing what he loves, and he has his own business and he's hiring other people and providing jobs. So in my view, that's success.

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, that story is extraordinarily illustrative. And there are plenty of people, including parents, who are in the position of parenting kids like Joe, who wouldn't take that desire of his seriously. And if they saw these other traits, who kind of wouldn't let it go and would maybe push him toward a college path that he didn't feel was right for him. And so your point is well taken. And the fact that there were people in his life who were willing to follow his lead and not pressure him to do something that he didn't really truly to do, even though he may have the skills to do any number of other things. It's remarkable that he had that that nurturing.

P.H.C.: Agreed! You know, and even in myself I felt that desire. It was quite a crossroads for me in my own experience. I wanted to push him to be a lawyer. You know, even knowing what I know, it was hard for me to just keep my mouth shut and encourage him to go on his own path. So I can't imagine what parents might be going through when they engage their own student in that manner. I think sometimes of the possibilities in the world that I didn't consider, because I too was pushed, you know, "you have to go to college!" And I think that was a result of a parents who meant well. I'm almost 50 and certainly my parents' generation after World War II, with the GI Bill and the suburbs being created, you had to go to college. That's where the jobs were. So my mom went to college and then pushed me to go to college.

Jeremy: You've mentioned a couple of times self-actualization. Do you ever think about your retirement and if there are things that you will explore during that time that are completely different from what you do now?

P.H.C.: Yes, absolutely. You know, I just bought a house too! I closed...

Jeremy: Congrats.

P.H.C.: Thank you! ...I think Thursday. But I thought, "why didn't I become an interior decorator? I'm so good at it!" Sometimes I think I wish I was a farmer. I love animals and even did as a little girl. And and I remember thinking I should be a veterinarian, because you had to go to college, and I loved animals. But now I think I would love to be a chicken farmer or have some sheep and, you know, get out of the rat race a little bit and just enjoy life. And so when I think of the career path I've chosen...and not that I regret it because teaching has been the best gift I've ever received, but I just think of all the opportunities that I didn't consider that I will do. I'll probably have a little farm someday and raise chickens and interior-decorate chicken houses. Who knows?

Jeremy: Can you think of one or two things that are really important things that you have learned from your students over the years?

P.H.C.: I guess from these students in particular—some of them come from really difficult backgrounds and circumstances—and the one thing I learned from them, I think, is just their perseverance. To not give up, to keep going, to keep fighting, to keep dreaming. It's amazing what some of these kids have been through and there's something in them. There's just a fire that's inextinguishable. Having faced so many injustices themselves, they stand so strong against any injustice they might witness. And that gives me such great hope for for their generation. You and I come from a different generation entirely, but their tolerance—and it's not even tolerance; it's more respect—for people who may be different from them. Their passion for equal rights for everyone, I think is astounding. I think that's what inspires me about this generation. And I guess in relating that to our conversation, you know, they're not going to be the culture of conformity and they're going to find their own path. And I think as educators and parents, we need to encourage that and we need to break down our own barriers and negative thoughts against different jobs and skills and trades. And I think those kids have taught me that. That no matter what you become, you will become successful if it's what's in your heart.

Jeremy: Next up, I'll be talking with Darcy and Kyle, parents of five kids who range from pre-K to high school seniors, about the things they emphasize and the things they've decided to let go when it comes to school.

But first, I want to tell you a bit about our next episode, which is all about bodies. Kids notice everything. About their own bodies and about the bodies of people they see around them. I'm hoping we can learn some things about how we can start early in teaching our kids about boundaries, exploration, diversity, and perception when it comes to human bodies. Our capitalist culture has done a great job of telling us that our bodies are not good enough, not worthy, and even shameful. And as parents, it can be tough to see through our own negative perceptions and get to a place where we can have healthy conversations with our kids about something that should be loved and celebrated. So I'd like to invite you to be a part of our bodies episode by sending me a voice memo or a note and telling me a bit about the messaging you received about your body growing up. Were you taught to hide your body or to suppress your curiosity about your own or others bodies? Were you given the idea that the way you curated your body's shape or image would define your worth as a person? Or maybe your family or community rejected those social pressures and you learned from a young age that your body was a thing of wonder and joy worth celebrating? Whatever your story is, I want to hear it. You can send your voice memo to me at thetalk@thetalkthepodcast.com

Darcy Morehouse: I don't know how much help we're going to be with this, because I feel like we're trying to figure all this shit out, too, at the same time, you know?

Jeremy: Yeah, well that's why I want to talk to you. I'm talking to a couple of other people. I'm talking to somebody who's a counselor in a school and who provides mental health services to kids and...

D.M.: Yeah, I'm glad you have, like, an expert on there so you can talk to, like, people who really know what they're doing and then a couple of idiots who are trying to figure it out.

Jeremy: That's mostly how I'm trying to balance this. Like, maybe somebody who knows something from an academic standpoint and then people who are just floundering.

D.M.: Clearly, we know which role we're in.

Jeremy: Darcy and Kyle Morehouse live in a small town of about a thousand people in upstate New York. Together they own and operate a growing lawn-care and landscaping business while raising their five kids who range in age from four to 18. Their kids have a wide variety of learning styles, personalities, and interests, and I sat down with both of them to find out how they navigate all of that when it comes to ensuring that their kids receive quality and nurturing educations, and about the lessons they bring with them from their own time in school.

Jeremy: I do want to talk to both of you...Darcy, a little less about your own school and education, because I kind of know about that. But, Kyle, I'm really curious to hear about, when you were growing up, how important school was to your parents. Was it important that you, like, academically excel? And tell me a little bit about that, if you don't mind.

Kyle Morehouse: Yeah. So like growing up, school was super important to my mother. My mom was a single parent. But she was very strict with school and it was almost like a downfall really, growing up—the way my mom pressured me so much for school—because it forced me to not be interested. It wasn't enjoyable. She really...that experience of like homework and stuff ruined school for me, to be honest with you.

Jeremy: Did you have teachers who recognized the way that you learned and tried to help you manage that?

K.M.: I think there's one teacher that pops out at me. My third grade teacher, I think. He would become a different character for every subject.

Jeremy: Kyle told me that he has experienced ADD throughout his life, as many people do, and it was a real challenge for him in school. But this teacher's dynamic, exuberant, and flamboyant style of instruction was a singular and memorable example in his early school years of a recognition that young kids need to be constantly engaged in order to be captivated by the idea of learning.

K.M.: I remember him still. He's probably one of the only early educators I can remember. There was one teacher, and the rest of it was just me getting pushed through school. I was forced through this cookie cutter that I wasn't even close to the shape of, you know? And I probably could have been a more productive citizen of society if I had been educated in a way that was geared more toward my strengths.

Jeremy: When you got into high school were there opportunities for you to, like, sort of focus your energy toward, like an academic track that was interesting to you?

K.M.: No, I mean, there was...so like I didn't really have a direction because for so long I didn't I wasn't really pushed towards what I enjoyed. So it was kind of like you got to get through high school. What did do it for me is they have like a Vo-Tech program, that was like a vocational school. So I did auto mechanics because I didn't know...if I knew more what I liked, I would to take something different. But I did auto mechanics pretty much because it got me out of needing a math credit, that I struggled at, you know what I mean?

Jeremy: Kyle didn't attend college directly after high school, but he told me that about five years ago he did go back to school to study electrical sciences. He was a single father at that time and after completing some liberal arts credits, found that it was impossible to continue and maintain a balance between his kids, his job, and furthering his education.

Jeremy: When the two of you talk to your kids who are in middle school and high school, how do you talk to them about a balance between academics and other things they're interested in? Do you tell them that school is important? Do you tell them that getting good grades is important and vital and crucial?

D.M.: Yes and no. Our two oldest are a junior and a senior this year. They both have a similar brain to Kyle and very similar wirings and have had a lot of the same struggles, especially our oldest. We've never expected them or forced them to be straight-A students because that's not who they are. And honestly, that's not really what's important either. So we have...I guess we have different standards for them. Obviously, we want them to pass so that they can graduate because that opens up a lot of opportunities. But, yeah, being straight-A students or B students has never really been a huge emphasis for us. It's more about the behavioral things, I think, and learning the skills that you will need in life. So like being respectful to your teachers and working with your teachers. And if you do turn in a zero, you know, being respectful that they're going to work with you and work that stuff out, does that make sense?

K.M.: And I've actually, like,...Darcy, softened my edges a lot, too, because in the beginning I was my mom with the boys. So I was like kind of like hammering education, boom, boom, boom. And like, "you gotta do this." And then when they got older older Darcy was kind of like, "you're doing what your mom did, Kyle. You know, that didn't work for you. So let's try to do the best thing for them." And it made sense. And I think they responded well to that.

Jeremy: Do you feel like your older kids, teachers understand the perspective that you're coming from in terms of focusing on academics, or focusing on other things besides high academic performance?

K.M.: Yeah, they do, actually. They're really good. And before we moved to the school district that we're in, we were in larger school district and kids were just falling in the cracks. Getting lost in the system and I couldn't really do anything about it.

Jeremy: Darcy and Kyle's kids attend a school with relatively small class sizes and a pretty tight knit sense of community, which is a bit of a luxury compared to many larger districts who can have difficulty providing personal support and attention to students. They told me that overall they've been very happy with the way the teachers and administrators in their school have met them and their kids with an open, collaborative and caring spirit.

D.M.: Like, there’s never been a blame game. And I think that is the school and us, and the culture that we've built with us and our kids, it's never about "who's fault is it?" It's like, "OK, what can we as a group and the kids kind of help set them up for the best possible chance of success?" and then understanding that at a certain point you can do so much, and there's a certain point where the kids themselves—they have to be the one to take it from there. We get emails from teachers all the time and some of them are like, "hey, this has been a problem..." But we get emails, too, that are like, "hey," you know, "this kid stayed after school for two hours and helped me rearrange my classroom. And I didn't ask him to, he just volunteered to help, and helped me move a bunch of furniture..." and on one hand want to pull our hair out because we didn't know who was being late and we didn't know where he was. But he comes home and it's like that's...just acknowledging that and recognizing it and saying, like, "hey, we got this from your teacher. That's awesome. Keep that stuff up." because that's the stuff that's really important, is being a decent human being and someone that other people really want to be around.

K.M.: And in that email she said, "Camron and I don't always get along, but he's got one thing that's probably the most important thing, and he's got a good heart. He's a good human," and she was like, "good job." And I was like, "yes!"

Jeremy: And with your younger kids—and I'm particularly interested in this because there's something that I'm kind of going through with Harry right now. He's in first grade, like your son Ethan, I think. And he's not all that motivated when it comes to, like, reading and writing, which to me is fine. He's five years old. He has a million other interests, and I'm in no real rush to, like, hammer that stuff into him before he's ready. But there are high expectations coming from school when it comes to that stuff. And I have like this internal struggle because I don't want him to become a focus of any kind of negative attention from his teachers. Or to be singled out and get the sense that he's, "falling behind" or something like that. Because our personal view of this is that these foundational, fundamental things will come and he will become more interested in those things when he's ready to. But it feels like there's just so much pressure from his teachers. And I don't want him to get discouraged. So I'm trying to approach it in healthy ways with him, but, I guess I just wonder if that experience echoes with you all at all.

D.M.: I can absolutely relate to the internal struggle that you talked about, of knowing on one hand, like, OK, if no one else was involved, I know how I as a parent would approach this, which would be it's OK. You know what? He's going to take his time and we're going to learn the way that works for him because he's very different than, say, Josh. Josh read really early. He's our nine year old. He was reading at three and he's an excellent reader. And he's always excelled academically very easily. Yeah, but his brain is wired completely different. And so, yeah, Ethan's not picking that stuff up, but he has other really great strengths that he has. And so anyway, I'll just say, like as a parent, not worried about that, but there is a ridiculous amount of pressure, a lot from the school and a lot just from, I think, societal...and I'm sure a lot of it's in my own head, too, which really is just, I think, a reflection of my own insecurities. Because even if he did fall behind and even if he were that kid in class that needed extra help...so the hell what? So what? You know? It's not the end of the world to need that, and it's not a reflection on who he is as a human or who we are as humans or parents. But it's really hard to remember that in the moment.

Jeremy: And we watched this video of, like, one of his teachers the other day who was going on and on and on to these six year olds about how they need to "push themselves" to be better readers. And she kept saying that phrase over and over, you need to really push yourself to become a level D reader. If you're not pushing yourself, then think about what you can do to push yourself more. And I stopped the video and I was like, "listen, we need to talk about this. What she's saying is bullshit." And we had our own conversation about it. I turned it off and I said, "listen, Harry, reading is wonderful but reading to become a better reader is not a reason to read. That's a great point." And so we talked about that. I said, "what do you think is a good reason to to read books?" And he said, "so I can learn about stuff." I was like, "yes, that's exactly...if you want to learn about something, then read a book about it. Like, that's really the only reason you need to you need to do that right now if you're interested in something. It's a great way to learn about something." In a way, having him at home for this period has been good because we're able to have those kinds of asides and we're able to have conversations that challenge things that he might be hearing from his teachers, where if he was actually in school, we wouldn't have the ability to address those things when they're coming in. So actually that's a good thing, I think.

D.M.: And really, realistically, the kids are going to be fine.

Jeremy: That's right.

D.M.: They're going to be fine.

Jeremy: Thanks to Darcy and Kyle for sharing their experience with me. And thanks to all the parents and other folks. I received voice memos from at the beginning of this episode. We heard from Miranda about feeling such intense pressure in elementary school that it actually manifested in physical health problems. And from Audrey, whose frustration with seeing her son have to engage in school over Zoom during covid is something that I know many of us relate to right now.

I had a really illuminating and encouraging conversation a couple of weeks ago with Poonam Dharni, a social worker in a New York City school about mental health services for students, something that she provides on a daily basis. That's coming up next on "The Talk".

But first, I want to take a moment to say thanks for listening to "The Talk", if you're enjoying these conversations and want to help support us, you can do so at thetalkthepodcast.com/donate. We are a fully independent podcast, and so all of our expenses from hosting and web subscriptions, to technical equipment and software, to promotion and design, come out of pocket. If you believe in the importance of these conversations as much as we do, and in investing in communication with our kids, then we hope you'll consider investing in us. Whatever you feel you can afford to donate will help to ensure that "The Talk" can continue.

We're working currently on an episode about death. This is one that I'm really excited to talk about, and I want to hear from you about how the perception you learned as a child about what death is and isn't and what it means have shaped your relationship with the idea as an adult. Do you remember first becoming aware of or witnessing death? Do you remember how it was explained to you by your parents or church or community? Do you have a fear of or fascination with death that you can trace back to childhood experiences, and how do you try to impart a healthy view of death on your kids as they grow up? If you're willing, I'd love for you to send me a voice memo or a note and tell me a bit about it. You can send your voice memo to thetalk@thetalkthepodcast.com. I look forward to hearing from you.

Jeremy: Poonam Dharni works full time as a social worker in a middle and high school building in Queens, New York. She provides counseling to students both as part of their personalized learning plans and also as an option for students who may want extra mental health support or help navigating some kind of crisis in school or in their personal lives. It's notable that in Poonam's school, there's a significant immigrant population, a population that is often denied easy and affordable access to mental health support in our society.

Jeremy: I remember being in high school and there was there was a school psychologist in the building. And I'm wondering...is it mandated to have mental health resources in school buildings?

Poonam Dharni: Well, traditionally, you know, every school has a school psychologist, but pretty much traditionally what that role entails is doing psychological evaluations for students who may exhibit some signs of maybe like learning disorders or, you know, some type of impairment that interferes with them being able to, like, learn in the classroom environment. They don't necessarily do mental health work. And my role is newer, I would say, as far as the last few years go, because prior to social workers being put in for specific mental health reasons, they've been traditionally like the support to the school psychologists. So now I think it's starting to be more recognized, more school's, there's more funding for it. And so I think like this last school year, like 2019 into 2020, I think the DOE hired I think like about a hundred social workers and placed them in various different schools across the city. So I think it's becoming, slowly, more of a common resource for there to be like mental health specialists in schools.

Jeremy: I feel like that's a wonderful trend. You know, we talk a lot about access to mental health care and mental health services. And I feel like having that as a more common and more frequent norm in schools is a great way to equalize that access disparity. So I'm encouraged to hear that that's happening more and more.

P.D.: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeremy: You haven't always worked in schools, so can you tell me a little bit about your career before that and what brought you to working in public schools?

P.D.: As I started my career as a social worker, I was working at an outpatient mental health clinic where I worked with children as young as four, five all the way to 19, 20. And so it's really from there that I kind of started to think about schools, because I worked with kids and teens coming in for therapy, whether they were referred because...you know, usually it's like behavioral issues at school that really is like that initial reason for sending them to therapy or recommending therapy. They can't focus, they can't sit still, they're fighting with others or, you know, the grades are dropping. And so they come to therapy and then we work with them to develop coping skills. But oftentimes what happens is then there might be other triggers in the school environment that I'm not there to witness or observe and help them. So I think that that was always, in my mind, like it would be great to have this service, what I'm doing, actually in a school building. Kids need this in school, right? Because that's where they are and that's where the conflict is happening. And also, sometimes transportation could be a barrier for them to have to now, after school, find a way to come to their therapy appointments. Whether they don't have like, you know, carfare or parents have to find time out in the evening to bring them to therapy. So there were certain barriers that I feel like having the service in school really eliminates, you know, and takes care of those obstacles and barriers.

Jeremy: Do kids come to you stressed about school?

P.D.: Sometimes at school related, and then sometimes it's not academic related, it could be personal. Like there's, you know, personal things going on in their lives that, you know, that they might be dealing with that's causing them stress or anxiety or depression. And then sometimes it's like conflicts with peers or conflicts at home. You know, we do mediations as well in my role. We have the restorative justice program at our school. So what's really cool about it is that it's like a whole curriculum that basically allows us to teach basic skills like empathy. It helps us teach them like emotional intelligence. Like how to listen to each other, how to respect each other, how to have empathy. And so part of that program is also a mediation that we that we do so to help students resolve conflicts also. And I feel like that's like a really great asset that we have as part of that program because it reduces incidents of fights, you know, significantly. But also what it does is it just helps to model better communication skills for them and then help them kind of practice them with each other. And then we'll have students coming to us like "I need a mediation," you know, because they're having a problem with a friend. And without a mediation, I can think back to my years in middle school or high school, and sometimes that would result in, like, you just cut each other off and the friendship ends and that's it. And nobody knows why, you know, or it leads to a fight...a physical fight, an altercation, where someone gets suspended. And I feel like it helps to kind of uncover maybe their own stuff that they're carrying around. You know, maybe they're angry about something going on in their personal life. And sometimes we project it onto our friends and others around us and we don't even realize we're doing that.

Jeremy: The fact that they the students will come to you when there's a conflict and request a mediation really speaks to...I feel speaks to the effectiveness of the program and also, you know, to those administering it that there's a level of trust there, that the students really feel like this situation will be able to be resolved if I bring it to this program. That's remarkable.

P.D.: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I, I believe in it. I stand by it. And sometime...some students aren't so much into the idea of it, but it's a great alternative to like a suspension, you know, or getting into a fight and then being suspended. So either way, it's a win win.

Jeremy: Generally speaking, restorative justice is a concept that aims to address unlawful or undesirable behavior by taking the focus off of reactive punitive measures and using dialogue, openness, and rehabilitative strategies to repair relationships and strengthen communities. In stark contrast to strategies that employ force and punishment, which only serve to alienate and further divide the understanding between perpetrators and victims. It's a way of teaching people to see and understand each other. Poonam told me that over the last few years, a restorative justice program tailored to school environments has been slowly rolled out throughout the New York City school district, with about nineteen schools currently receiving staff and training and with training resources available to any school that wants to implement a program utilizing their own staff and students.

Jeremy: When you are in communication with their parents, what kind of openness and transparency is there when you talk to their parents about their kids counseling?

P.D.: Since I've been trained from a more therapeutic approach and in an outpatient mental health type of setting, confidentiality is very important. And so I come with that lens and when it comes to talking to their parents, I do maintain their confidentiality. So like, you know, sometimes they have, like, a boyfriend or girlfriend and their parents don't know about it. I'm not going to share that. But I think I do try to explain to parents in very general terms what some of the challenges are that their child is dealing with, and what we're working on to try to help them develop coping skills to improve the way they deal with the challenges. There are exceptions. If there's any serious risk of them hurting themselves or hurting somebody else or they're being abused in any way, then I'm very clear and transparent with them that I will not be able to keep that a secret for them because of their safety.

Jeremy: What is the academic culture like in your school community? Is there a lot of pressure on your students, from their parents and from the school to meet high academic standards?

P.D.: We are a college preparatory school, which means...it's very unique in that we offer classes for students to take where they can start to earn college credit while they're in high school. And it's an amazing opportunity. We've had students, you know, totally take advantage and they're already like starting college as a sophomore, right? And it's really like kind of a hidden gem in that sense, you know, our school. And then for those who do not really understand the the benefit of that, they may not understand how to kind of take advantage of that. And I think about students who go to like specialized high schools. And I know some personally and the pressure is different, like the pressure from parents, the pressure from peers, from the school administration in those type of specialized high schools is like immense. And so I don't see that same pressure in our school. The students who really might feel that pressure, I feel like sometimes I see it more as like a self-imposed, rather than it being like from parents.

Jeremy: Yeah. What do you tell a student who you see as putting that kind of intense pressure on themselves to perform academically? How do you approach that conversation to get them to a place that's more healthy mentally, emotionally,

P.D.: They're so hyper-focused on...well, as adolescents, period, they're hyper-focused on the present moment. And what's happening now, in this moment, is the most important, more important than anything. And so helping them kind of take a step back and just trying to help them understand, like "if you don't succeed here, or if you don't get into, you know, whatever school you want to get into, what does that mean? What are the consequences of that and what are the alternatives? What are other options?" And trying to kind of help them see, like it's not the end of the world, right? And trying to help them see, like, in the end, I don't know if it matters so much what school you went to as much as the experience you've gained and your work ethic. I really don't try to make a common practice of, like, drawing comparisons for them because it doesn't matter what someone else is doing, it's about how you're feeling and what you're experiencing. But still trying to give them a perspective of like stories or anecdotals where...like personally, I have friends that I've known since elementary school. I've known them through elementary, middle school, and high school. And I was the more studious of the friend group. I was the one who was in the more, you know, advanced, challenging classes, and they were taking it easy. And then when they got to college, I went into a four year right after and she went into a community college and she started there. And then she ended up doing well, transferring to the four year with me. We graduated together and now she makes like three times as much money as I can make, you know? So I try to kind of give them these stories just to help them, like, build perspective and see beyond, like, you know, tomorrow.

Jeremy: Your school is a college preparatory school, so presumably the the goal is for all the graduating students to head off to college in some capacity. Do you see students and through the course of your counseling it becomes evident that that college might not be the right fit for for them? And how do you talk to them about that...and their parents?

P.D.: Yeah, that does come up. I think the personality of the individual really comes into play there. Are they just looking for something that's practical, that's going to be able to give them some stability and they're going to be able to like, you know, enter the workforce and be able to start to kind of like earn their own money and be self-sufficient? Orr are they really interested in fashion? Or are they really interested in, like, cooking and that's a passion of theirs? And also we are looking at like, for what they want to do, is college necessary? Now, personally, I always encourage some level of higher education, whether it's community college or vocational, trade school, or whatever. But I just feel like there are so many skills that can be gained from higher education, that's not actually content oriented. It's not what you learn. I don't remember what I learned in undergrad, you know? I didn't learn anything the first couple of years, in terms of, like, content, right? But what I did learn was how to manage my time on my own, you know, because in high school there's like a schedule and you follow it and the bell rings and you go to the next class. But in college, you pick your classes. You have to get there on time. You have to do the work. You have to make the effort to speak to the professor if you need help or have a question. It's not laid out for you. So all of these things are really like life skills that I feel like it teaches you. And that's why I always kind of push college, even if it's just some college—an associate's or one year, something, just to help them develop those life skills, you know, independent life skills.

Jeremy: Yeah, I really, really appreciate you talking with me. I've I've enjoyed this conversation a lot.

P.D.: Likewise.

Jeremy: Thanks so much. I'll speak to you soon.

P.D.: All right.

Jeremy: Okay. Bye bye.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Talk, thanks to my guests for this episode. Pam Hogan Charrone, Darcy and Kyle Morehouse, and Poonam Dharni. And to Miranda and Audrey for their voice memo contributions. You can find the talk on Facebook and Instagram at @thetalkthepodcast, and on the web at thetalkthepodcast.com. If you'd like to support us, you can do so at the thetalkthepodcast.com/donate. Finally and most heartily, thanks to my wife Jenny and to our kids, Harrison and Ezra, without whom "The Talk" would literally never have even been a whisper of a ghost of a conceptual thought. Goodbye.