Ep. 2 - LEADERS

Transcript:

Voicememo (Misti): Leadership is seeing the value in team members that they might not even see in themselves, and then putting it to use.

Jeremy: You're listening to “The Talk”, a podcast where we explore the possibility of creating a radical new communication environment between parents and children. An environment that's open, honest and candid, and where nothing is off limits.

Voicememo (Cat & Lincoln): So a leader is somebody who can get other people to do the right thing, or who can inspire people to be the best version of themselves. So, you know, like sometimes when you get mad, you want to do something that's against the rules. And do you break the rules sometimes? (Lincoln): Sometimes, but not all the time. (Cat): Yeah. When I'm honest with you, Lincoln, about safety, does that make you understand the rule a little bit better? (Lincoln): Yeah. (Cat): And make you want to follow the rules? And with the coronavirus, I would say a good leader is someone who can make people understand why it's important to wear a mask. So, Lincoln, if you were going to talk to somebody who doesn't want to wear a mask, what would you tell them to get them to understand why it's important to wear one? (Lincoln): Because of coronavirus. (Cat): ...and they said, I don't want to. What would you say? (Lincoln): It's really important. (Cat): I don't think so...maybe you could say "we all want to go back to school, please wear your mask, it will help all of us." (Lincoln): But what would he say? (Cat): You know what, he still might say "no", but you might change his mind a little later. And so even if he says "no" now, but maybe tomorrow he wears a mask, that would be a good outcome. Does that make sense to you? (Lincoln): Yeah. (Cat): It's really important how we talk to each other.

Jeremy: I was listening recently to a lecture by the legendary activist Angela Davis, given during Women's History Month at Emory University. Dr. Davis began her address by acknowledging those who are arguably the most important leaders of the freedom movements of the 1950s and '60s, asserting that it wasn't the well-known faces of those movements, the men and women in front of the cameras and in newspapers who made the most impact. It wasn't those who went on to write books about the movements, the famous civil rights, LGBTQ rights, and feminist icons we study and revere. But the grassroots organizers all over the country, in cities and small towns who had worked tirelessly and thanklessly, and who had no national platforms to convince those around them that disenfranchised people deserved equality, equity, respect, and dignity. Martin Luther King Jr., Gloria Steinem, and Harvey Milk, for example, all did massively important things for the movements they represent. But the truest leaders of those movements may just be the anonymous, forgotten people who did the work on the ground, in school auditoriums and VFW halls and church basements. On town greens and city hall steps and in living rooms, without any promise of fame or prestige or money or status or support. That moment in the lecture got me really thinking about leadership and about the way that our culture has made the word leader synonymous with characteristics like charisma, strength, influence, likability and even heroism. And we've been conditioned to view people who are in charge and in power as de facto leaders.

But what if we could teach our kids that the power of real leaders is the ability to give others power? What if we told our kids that leaders are actually followers, that they listen to people who have needs and then try to fill them? What if we could convince our children that the superpower that true leaders possess is the power to disappear, to become the invisible hands that support and provide for those who don't have what they need, through kindness and compassion? It may be a hard sell and it may be a bit of a paradox, too, because on the surface it might sound like I'm advocating for eschewing the demonstration or the accumulation of power. But the tricky bit is in the reframing. It's in the fundamental redefinition of words like "power" and "strength" and how those traits relate to our actions and in the admission that we all want and need power and control over our own lives.

Matt Hinkley: It's the black and white, it's they're the good guys and they have powers and they can blow up more things and then there's the bad guys and they're just pure evil, you know? We talk about that all the time.

Jeremy: That's Matt Hinkley. Matt lives in New Jersey with his wife, Kymberly, and their daughter Madeline, who just turned five. Matt is a full time Broadway musician, and like most people in the theater industry, work is scarce right now. And there's not a lot of financial relief available for the 97,000 people who work on Broadway alone, something Matt recently wrote about for the New York Daily News. To me personally, Matt is a trusted and admired friend, colleague, and parent. And over the past few years, I've been watching him speak thoughtfully and in depth about leadership in our country. I talked with Matt a few weeks ago, just after the first presidential debate, and wanted to know how those conversations look with Madeline.

M.H.: She's very into this sort of binary way of thinking about right and wrong, which can be good in some ways. But then it also gets translated into this good guy, bad guy, and that's just how the world gets divided up. And I always try to talk to her about, yes, there are bad people in the world, and that's a sad thing that we have to deal with. And, you know, the good people are the ones who try to stand up to them. But but most of the time, the people doing things the wrong way are not necessarily bad people. In many respects they are good people. It's just that good people do the wrong things sometimes. Good people make bad choices sometimes. And so it's not it's not always going to be about just vanquishing and defeating everybody who does something that you think is wrong, you know? Eventually she's going to have to learn it's going to be a lot more nuanced than that if you're trying to help guide and shape other people's behavior in order to kind of create the world that you want to see.

Jeremy: Yeah, and I think you're right that at these young ages, nuance is something that's really difficult just because of the place where their brains are in development. But do you feel like setting the groundwork for her to be able to understand that later is what you're doing? Or are there ways that you see her really being able to internalize some of that kind of complexity already?

M.H.: She can internalize it to a surprising degree, but I think that that happens more in the times of calm, sort of in between when things happen. You know, she's four, almost five. I think your emotions and different things just get the best of you. I'm 38 and still have that problem.

Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.

M.H.: But yeah, I think what we're trying to do is lay the groundwork for how...not necessarily what she thinks and what she believes, although I think that's important, but how she goes about thinking, how she goes about determining things about the world around her and about herself and about her interactions with other people. And I think a major part of that is just developing empathy. I think empathy is something that you have to develop. You have to nurture it. I think anybody in a position of leadership, particularly in the way that you're speaking of, have to have a pretty developed sense of empathy and compassion in order to be able to throw themselves into the kind of work that that helps other people, and doesn't necessarily bring them the kind of credit and attention and power and fame and all those things that we think of when we think of true leaders.

Jeremy: Can I ask you to think back to your childhood, if you can, for a minute?

M.H.: Oh, sure.

Jeremy: I'm curious because I have distinct memories of this, and probably from in the ages of like five to eight. But I'm curious if you remember being around other kids at those kinds of ages, being around your friends, and where you sort of fit in. Were other kids following your lead at that time? Or did you feel like there were other kids that you were looking up to? Were you were assertive, like in your social circles at that time?

M.H.: It's such an interesting question. I don't know...oddly enough, I don't think I've ever sort of looked back on my childhood with that kind of framing. I think it goes to what you're speaking about, just these sort of assumed stereotypical qualities that we think of when we think of, you know, "who is a leader?" I was very lucky in a lot of respects. I think I always related to the kids around me pretty well, and so I always had a pretty good group of friends. I feel like I was well-liked and people listened to me if I had ideas. But I was never the kind of person who would just lead by sheer dominance, you know, like just exerting your will over the situation or over a group of people. I don't know that I really have that in me either. I think I had maybe other tools in my toolbox, you know, part of which was just being able to relate and communicate I think fairly well with lots of people and lots of sort of different kids from different groups. But yeah, I don't think as a kid I was ever particularly the alpha, dominate-everybody kind of kid. But I definitely wanted to have a voice and wanted to...even though I wouldn't have understood it at the time, I suppose I wanted to be respected by people around me as being that kind of a person. Yeah. No, that wasn't me exactly.

Jeremy: Do you talk with Madeline about our country's leadership? Like, do you feel like you have to purposely make a differentiation for her between the leadership qualities you talk about as a family and the contrasting ways that she might see or hear public figures acting?

M.H.: I've been thinking about this all morning, especially after watching last night. I'm like, you know, if we're going to teach our kids anything about civic responsibility and civic duty and about what it means to be a good citizen and a good member of a community, what from the last four years can we use as an example? It's sort of antithetical to all the things that I would want to impart in terms of, you know, "Hey, you want to make the world a better place. Here's how you engage."

Jeremy: Well, my answer to that question with with our kids has been...we just don't focus on those people at the top. Over the last four years, we have seen a lot of leadership, but it's not from those places, you know? It's from the people who are on the ground, activating. It's from people who are working for voting reform. It's from people who are creating community fridges in their neighborhoods. There are so many people that we have found to look at and look to, and take the emphasis off of these people who are supposedly our leaders but are not acting like it.

M.H.: That is that is a wonderful point, and I think a hugely important thing to do. I do think we do ourselves a disservice by deciding that there are only sort of a few certain positions in society that are leadership roles. Like you say, I mean, somebody putting together a community fridge. You know, that's massive leadership on a different level. You know, it doesn't have to just be, "Well, your role model for leadership needs to be the president, or your role model for leadership needs to be this particular celebrity or sports star or whatever. Madeline I think really looks up to her teachers at her school and she talks about wanting to be a teacher and she kind of play pretends like being a teacher to her dolls at home, you know, it's really adorable. But that's something that I've tried to encourage, like, yeah, teachers do a really, really important thing, and they and they they have a huge impact on people's lives and they can have a big impact for the better, you know. We place a huge premium on kindness in our household. You know, it's OK to feel things. It's always OK to get mad. It's always OK to tell us how you feel. You know, it's always OK for you to stand up for yourself. But we always emphasize kindness as just this is the...you know, this is like maxim number one, that we that we need to kind of go through life and operate through.

Jeremy: In our house, the boys and I have an anarchist pledge of allegiance because we don't log into the schools Pledge of Allegiance like morning thing. We've made our own Pledge of Allegiance. And one of the things that we pledge allegiance to is becoming powerful through kindness. And we talk about that all the time. And so we also look for people who are doing kind things and engaging in kind acts and trying to point out every time that we see that I try to say "that person is being a great leader because they are gaining their power through kindness and by trying to help give other people power who don't have power."

M.H.: I love that, that's awesome.

Jeremy: So I mean, that, to me also, is where the focus is. And I was really glad to hear you talk about that.

M.H.: You know, one of the things we repeat to our daughter all the time is, look, it's our job to make sure that you grow up safe and healthy and smart and kind. Those are like our four things that we say. These these are our big jobs with you. So I think she really wants...I see her wanting to be that kind of person. And so it's like, OK, how do you guide that properly? When do you know to just get out of the way? It's a tough balance to strike. But I love your idea about utilizing acts of kindness as examples of leadership and power.

Jeremy: Because I think there are some words like that that we just need to reframe, you know what I mean? Power, strength, those kinds of things.

M.H.: I think about that all the time in a little different context with with just sort of thinking about our definitions of masculinity and our definitions of strength in that regard. I mean, we have to rethink what it means to be a strong person. I would love to dismantle all of that framework and rebuild it.

Jeremy: Next up I'll be talking to a public school dean of students about tough love, student leadership, and paying it forward. But first, I want to say thanks to those of you who sent me notes and voice memos to use for this episode, we heard from Misti about looking outside yourself and finding qualities in others that strengthen your team and community. And we also heard from Cat and Lincoln about the importance of our choice of language and tone goes a long way in creating effective leadership. I also want to say thanks to Cat for reminding us of the effectiveness of role play when teaching our kids how to relate to one another with kindness and compassion.

The next episode of "The Talk" is going to be all about school and education, and I want to hear your stories. I'd like to invite you to send me a voice memo and tell me about the ways your parents impacted your relationship with learning and if that affects the way you talk to your kids about school. Was there a healthy balance in your household between the importance of academic excellence and other creative or physical outlets? Did your parents pressure you into a college path that you didn't truly want? Or maybe you wish your parents had encouraged you to take your education more seriously or had guided you toward vocational or trade-focused training? You can send your note or voice memo to thetalk@thetalkthepodcast.com. I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Fred Salomon is the dean of students at Pathway's Preparatory School, a sixth through 12th grade school in the St. Albans neighborhood of Queens. The student population is largely made up of first or second generation Caribbean immigrants. And I wanted to hear from Fred about the ways that he relates to his students as a leader and role model, and about the leadership qualities he sees in the students themselves.

Fred Salomon: So I'm the Dean of Students for Boys and Girls for High School. I was middle school and high school, but thank God we have a middle school dean now to take on the middle school aspect of things. But I started off both and now I'm just doing the high school, still working with the middle school to make sure that the middle school is still on track and doing what's needed.

Jeremy: Is that primarily a disciplinary position, or how would you describe what you do with your students from day to day?

F.S.: Just making sure...disciplinary is a definite. Having the students make sure that they are on track on their work as well as behavior-wise. So it's preparing them basically for the world and for the future, whatever the future holds for them.

Jeremy: When you approach that kind of stuff, when you approach discipline with your students, do you consider yourself a tough love kind of person, or how do you feel like is the best way to get your students and keep them on track? How do you approach it?

F.S.: Being real, in all honesty. Being real. And you're right, you said the words right out my mouth: Tough love. They know that I love them and my interest is the best for them, overall.

Jeremy: So do you feel like your students...because of that tough love approach, do you feel like your students fear you or do you feel like...does that approach garner their respect?

F.S.: I don't think the word "fear." Not the word "fear," but I feel that I give them so much, so when they do wrong, they are disappointed that they did something wrong and they have to approach me.

Jeremy: Yeah. So you're teaching them to self reflect.

F.S.: Exactly. Exactly.

Jeremy: Do you remember some of the leaders, mentors, and role models that you had in school when you were the age that your students are now?

F.S.: I remember high school clear as day, you understand? So I remember, I didn't have individuals in my school that I could honestly talk to and sit down, you know if a situation occurred here and there. This time is different. We have individuals like us in the school and, you know, I want these kids to take advantage of everything that we have to offer to them.

Jeremy: I'm curious, like when when your kids see the leadership of our country, when they see the leadership of our city, are there enough leaders that they see who look like them that they can feel inspired by?

F.S.: Honestly? Yes and no. I try not to put a color on a leader. We need to see more representation of us and who we are, but I feel like if our leaders are on the same page, our kids won't have to worry about, "I wonder if this person is black or white and they will be on our side." I think it stems from us as being that leader to say "this is what's right and this is what's wrong and we love everybody." And I feel like if if we stem more like that in the world and we keep on conquering the walls that needs to be broken down, you know, times will change. We have some great positive leaders in this world, which I'm thankful for, but at the same time, we have to make sure that we come together as a whole. And, you know, that's where we lack you know, we start looking at different barriers and things.

Jeremy: And you're you're a coach, too, right? You coach the step team?

F.S.: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy: Your kids are incredible, man. I every time I get the chance to see them, I'm so blown away by just the skill and the precision and the work that they put into that.

F.S.: Thank you. They work hard. They work hard.

Jeremy: I know they do.

F.S.: And I think during that during the step movement that I have with them, it gave them the opportunity to teach other individuals and to learn about togetherness and being a team. If there are not leaders in doing that, it wouldn't come about like that. So it's by them becoming leaders and understanding the craftsmanship of their work, it allows them to create something magical. Such as step.

Jeremy: And I feel like that's a good metaphor for, you know, their entire lives. If they can be leaders and also accept leadership, then they can, like you said, create something magical for their lives, for everything, for their communities. It's great.

F.S.: My boys who graduated now, they started something called Big Brother Mentorship, and they bring the new individuals in and they just guide them and mentor them in how they could better their community, how they could help their surroundings, etc... So I'm proud of them for starting something like this, which is so magical, which I could, you know, I could say that it started from me. And now they're grown men, you know, and they understand having a great mentor, a great leader in their life.

Jeremy: That's amazing. And it kind of shows that leadership is not about position or prestige, but that wherever you are in your community, in your family, in your school, you can be a leader. It doesn't have to mean that everybody knows who you are. It's like not synonymous with fame. I feel like...

F.S.: I agree. I agree a hundred percent. I have many individuals, as I said growing up, that I look at as leaders in their own special way. And that's what I want these kids to know, that they don't have to be the front person just as long as they're touching one individual, they can always be that leader in life.

Jeremy: Thanks to Fred for talking with me. You can find more information on the Big Brother Mentorship group that Fred's former students created by visiting the show page on our website.

I'm working currently on an episode about bodies. It's a big topic, and I hope to get into the ways that we can have healthy conversations with our kids about boundaries, ownership, exploration, and respect for our bodies and the bodies of others. Would you send me a note or voice memo and tell me how your feelings about your body have been shaped throughout your life and how you hope to teach your kids to view, use, enjoy, and respect their own? You can send your voice memo to thetalk@thetalkthepodcast.com.

I've discovered over the past few months that creating and producing a podcast is a big job. It takes a lot of organization, planning, focus, and discipline. And it also costs money. If you're enjoying listening to "The Talk" and you'd like to help support us, you can do so at the thetalkthepodcast.com/donate. Your donation will help cover the costs of hosting distribution, transcription, software subscriptions, technical equipment, and all the other things that make it possible for "The Talk" to continue.

Jeremy: Hi, how are you?

Jane Burgess: Good, how are you?

Jeremy: Good! I just got done with an epic shower-time struggle with Ezra.

J.B.: Oh yeah? Well, yes, nothing here has run quite like it normally does this evening, because Charlie had a friend over...we're in a bubble with another family. I feel like I always have to explain that to people when I'm like "Charlie had a friend over..." But anyway, I was going to walk her home and then I was like, "wait, I started an interview in ten minutes!" So there was like a mad dash.

Jeremy: You just sent her home on her own.

J.B.: Just sent her home...

Jeremy: "You'll find your way…"

J.B.: Yeah.

Jeremy: Ezra was so mad in the shower that he opened the curtain and bit my hip and he, like, drew blood on my leg.

J.B.: Oh, my gosh. That's crazy!

Jeremy: He was a little angry.

J.B.: He's your wild child, right?

Jeremy: He...a little bit. I think he's a little bit like I was actually at that age. Yeah. He has like a level of energy and also kind of angst sometimes that is really frustrating, but I also like recognize somehow, like from early childhood sense memories and things, you know what I mean?

J.B.: Yeah. That's me and Charlie. And I'm not the most patient with him. And it's funny because I totally see it. I mean, I know where he's coming from. I know when he freaks out. But yet I end up, like, in a yelling match with him and then I'm like, "why am I doing this? I understand him."

Jeremy: I feel like that's such a common thing. And I always wonder why people who know they're similar to someone else in that way...why it's not compassion and understanding that's like the default thing that flows between them, you know?

J.B.: Yeah. We're just we're just at each other's throats sometimes. And it goes both ways, I mean, I think he knows all the right buttons to push...

Jeremy: Of course!

J.B.: ...because we're so similar.

Jeremy: This is Jane Burgess. Jane and her husband, Micah, have two kids. Charlie is about to turn 10 and is in fifth grade. And Pete, who's four, is in pre-K. Jane is the daughter of Donald Cookman, a career politician who served for over 40 years in the eastern part of West Virginia before retiring in 2014. I was curious about what it must have been like growing up as the child of a political figure,J and how that shaped Jane's view of leadership as she grew up.

Jeremy: Thank you for chatting with me, Jane. I appreciate it.

J.B.: Yeah, yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to be boring, but...

Jeremy: No! I'm...I'm not afraid of that. Jane, would you talk to me just a little bit about your dad's career? About the timeline of his years serving.

J.B.: Yeah. So my dad was a prosecuting attorney for twenty five years, and then I was trying to do this math in my head today: He went on to be an elected circuit court judge, and I think that was for 18 to 20 years. And then he ended his career by...he was still sitting on the bench, but he was appointed as a West Virginia state legislator. It was like, a senator had been appointed somewhere else, some other job. So he ended up that term and then ran for reelection and lost. So, my dad never lost in his entire career, except right at the end.

Jeremy: And then he retired after that?

J.B.: Yeah.

Jeremy: Did he enjoy campaigning and running for office?

J.B.: Yes. Yes, my dad did. My mom did not. But my dad, it's totally...it's in his blood. That's what drives him.

Jeremy: Do you mean that his family has been in public office, or do you mean that he's just that...he has charisma and that...

J.B.: It's just his personality.

Jeremy: He was the kind of politician who would like...was all about the theater of it?

J.B.: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And apparently my dad did very theatrical things in the courtroom, like laying down on the floor and...you never knew exactly what he was going to do. But he was very persuasive.

Jeremy: At what point when you were a kid, did you sort of become aware that your dad was in the public eye?

J.B.: So in our community...I grew up in a town of two thousand people. So to have a dad who was the prosecuting attorney, like that was a pretty big deal. And I always I always felt very on display. And you're on display anyway in a small town like that, but then to have a dad who was a public figure. So, I mean, I always knew that that his job was important. I don't think I really, really understood the fact that he was a "politician" until he ran for judge. I think I was in the seventh or eighth grade. And as prosecuting attorney, he was an elected official. But this is funny, too, with my hometown. He was never opposed. Never opposed.

Jeremy: Was that disappointing to him? Do you feel like he would have eaten up the opportunity for, like, some stiff competition?

J.B.: I do. He just didn't campaign for prosecuting attorney, at least from when I could remember. I'm sure he did in the beginning. But he would go down to the courthouse the night of the election and watch the election returns come in. And I remember one year I went down with him and he was upset because he did not get the same amount of votes that year that he had gotten the year before.

Jeremy: Just the voter turnout was different.

J.B.: Yeah, but he was convinced it was because not as many people liked him. He wasn't doing the job that he was supposed to.

Jeremy: Well, I mean, if he was unopposed, like, what incentive does anyone really have to come out and vote?

J.B.: Right! Exactly. Yeah, and he loved actually running against somebody, the last time that he ran.

Jeremy: So do you think your dad considers himself a leader in the community, or what type of leadership skills do you think that he sees himself as having?

J.B.: That's hard, I think...I think my dad is a leader. I don't know if you ask him, "do you think that you're a leader?" If he would say, "yes, I think I'm a leader," but he possesses what I feel a leader should have. I mean, he definitely led by example. I always felt like I was taught that that there are people that have less than us, and that we should look out for those people. And there are kids in school who people aren't going to want to play with. And I'm supposed to go and talk to those people. And that was always ingrained in me. And that's that's the kind of leader that my dad was and is.

Jeremy: Did your parents have expectations of you and your brother, that you would act or behave a certain way because of his position, because you were visible to the community?

J.B.: I think so. I always felt like I was held to a higher standard than some of my friends. You know, like I remember...actually I wasn't as much of a troublemaker as my brothers. So I remember one time in particular, Rob was camping with some friends and it turned out that they stole street signs from all over town. And the police found these street signs, like, up in the woods where they camped. Rob had to go and replace all the signs. And there were several other kids involved, but only Rob had to go and do that with the signs. And my dad always made sure that if if we got into some sort of trouble like that, that we definitely got the right kind of punishment that we deserved.

Jeremy: Did you ever feel that your family was used in any way to, like, enhance his image? Or was that just kind of built into the deal? Or did he try to avoid that?

J.B.: I didn't feel used, I definitely felt like we were all part of it.

Jeremy: I mean, you wanted to support him.

J.B.: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy: Do you talk to your kids about our country's leadership?

J.B.: Yes, yeah.

Jeremy: I'm curious how you explain to them the idea that there are people who are in positions of power in our country and who are acting...abusing that power. They're not acting like leaders in the way that you described your dad as being a leader. Because, I mean, I think those are...truly those are the qualities of a real leader, is the desire to use your position to empower other people in any way that you can. And so I'm curious. I mean, Charlie knows that your dad is "a politician" and he sees these other people who are politicians. And I'm curious how you differentiate when when you talk with him between the ways of using your positions of power.

J.B.: I don't know...and you're right, it's everywhere. And that's why we have to talk about it right now. I don't know if it was just a run of the mill president right now, like, somebody with not a lot of controversy or, you know, I don't know if I would necessarily be having these very serious talks like I have to with Charlie. I've definitely shown...because we have Pete who has a disability...Charlie is very aware of Donald Trump mocking the disabled reporter. And, you know, just pointing out to him any time I can that he's not looking out for the little people.

Jeremy: What kind of leadership qualities do you see in Charlie and Pete? Or do you feel that you do?

J.B.: Yeah, I definitely do. Both of them are very charismatic, and both of them have a way of getting kids to want to do what they're doing. Pete in a not-so-obvious way because he doesn't really say, "come on, let's go and do this." But I've noticed him on the playground. He can get kids that are his age and typically developing to be very interested in what he's doing. And Charlie's a lot that way too. A teacher of his said that he was a real inspiration to kids that don't have a lot of self-confidence. And there was one particular kid that would only get up and speak in front of the class if Charlie got up and stood beside him.

Jeremy: That's amazing. When you were a kid and you would see your dad campaigning or in front of his constituents, did you feel like he behaved differently in those situations than he did at home? What was the consistency between those two worlds like?

J.B.: He had to take me on a lunch date once, and I think I was probably three. And he had to take me on this lunch date where he was meeting with a psychologist for a trial that he was working on. A child abuse trial. And apparently the psychologist, while they were they were doing their business, they were talking and I got under the table and I wouldn't come out. And no matter what my dad did, I would not come out. He was trying to talk very calmly to me, trying to coax me out. And finally, he just grabbed me and spanked me on my butt and sat me down. And the psychologist looked at him and said, "was that really necessary?" And he said, "she's sitting down now!" So did my dad look different at home as opposed to like when he was out? No, not always! I think he tried his best.

Jeremy: I am going to let you go. I want to say thank you again for for doing this.

J.B.: Sure!

Jeremy: All right. I will talk to you soon.

J.B.: All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Jeremy.

Jeremy: Bye, Jane.

Jeremy: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of "The Talk". If you enjoyed it, please take a moment to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'd also like to thank Matt Hinkley, Fred Salomon, and Jane Burgess for being guests on this episode, and also to everyone who sent me notes and voice memos to use. You can find "The Talk" on Instagram and Facebook at @thetalkthepodcast. And if you'd like to support the talk, you can do so by visiting thetalkthepodcast.com/donate. Dana Gertz designed to all of our original artwork. Finally, I would be a fool not to give the heartiest thanks to my wife Jenny and to our kids for enabling "The Talk" to exist and for creating quiet moments in a small apartment for me to record interviews and voiceovers...like this one. Goodbye.